Opinions on lying in a youtube video

[Rokk]

Yeah! This has turned into quite a heated argument! I like that!

Originally Posted by Albert

I never said lying isn't part of magic. Magicians often lie and have to when performing a trick; that's why I said "Depending on the situation, you have to lie in a trick".

True! I didn't read your post very well. Sorry!

The situation that therippertormentor explained is a situation where that guy is trying to make himself bigger and better in front of other magicians, not just laymen. The motive is just not the same. He's not doing it simply to fool laymen. He is lying to fool magicians in an unethical way. That's what really differentiates between a lie that you should do and shouldn't do.

I don't really see what the big difference is between lying for laymen and lying for magicians. In a way we are always laymen in regard to the tricks we don't know! And the motive is just the same: to make our actions appear greater then what they are. All for the sake of entertainment. Could you please explain what makes fooling magicians unethical? (I don't necessarily disagree on this one. I just haven't made up my mind on what to think! )

Also, referring to using another method to achieve the same effect really would be pointless to bring up here, since we are only talking about that one method used by that guy who lied.

I don't think it is pointless though. To a spectator any method to achieve the same effect IS the same trick. And I wasn't thinking about a completely different method either. More like just palming of the card and handing out the deck...

To me it seems like we magician gets so used to lying that we tend to not see it as a lies anymore. (lie = tell an untrue statement. Doesn't necessarily bear any negative connotations to me)

However, from the spectators view I think no-one would think there is any difference between "Your card is not on top" and "The deck may be shuffled by a spectator". If you are caught lying in either case, you are busted! But that doesn't mean they don't expect that you are lying!

And every now and then we are turned into laymen again when we can't figure out a trick. We are amazed and we love the trick! And the method is propably a new one that we didn't think of, for example: lying when we expected him to be telling the truth! So, why would that method be "unethical" when we would lovingly embrace any other method to achieve the effect?

The reason why Chris Angels stooge-tricks seems lame is not simply beacuse he is lying, but because it is so easily seen through. Just think of it. Suppose he told a person to think of a number between one and a million and guess it correctly! Imagine if you would NOT think that the spectator is a stooge (but he is!). That would be a totaly amazing effect! Not very tecnically advanced, but as always: the simplest tricks are often the best.

But maybe what all boils down to is wether you think of magic as an art or just entertainment. An entertainer can lie unscrupulously. But an artist shouldn't cause it is disrespectful for the art! I dont know...

Imho in magic a lie is good lie if it is believed!

tl:dr: I still think I am right and Albert is wrong!

[Mark]

Originally Posted by theheron

hey guys, thought i'd share this.. it may give you a good veiw on deception and lying in tricks.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvXqX...ture=autoshare

Great link. I seen it before but I don't really agree with everything Marco said. Basically he says magic is self-deception, but that would mean the magician should shut up during his performance or at least not say anything about what seems to be happening.

But I fully agree that magicians do what people expect from them. This is also why I would support all psychics (even fake ones) as long as they don't do any harm, because they do what people expect them to do. If you would take all fake psychics down, you are not just exposing them, you are messing with people their beliefs which could end up really bad and much worse than those non-harmful psychics would have things end up.

Originally Posted by Rokk

The reason why Chris Angels stooge-tricks seems lame is not simply beacuse he is lying, but because it is so easily seen through. Just think of it. Suppose he told a person to think of a number between one and a million and guess it correctly! Imagine if you would NOT think that the spectator is a stooge (but he is!). That would be a totaly amazing effect! Not very tecnically advanced, but as always: the simplest tricks are often the best.

Criss' tricks seem lame to us, but many think he's the very best magician on this planet. It would have worked if he wouldn't have said anything about not using camera trickery or stooges, and magicians would have actually liked him a lot more because he wouldn't be lying for no reason. It's like saying "I don't use a Double Lift", there just is no reason to say that to your spectators.

[Rokk]

Originally Posted by Mark

Criss' tricks seem lame to us, but many think he's the very best magician on this planet. It would have worked if he wouldn't have said anything about not using camera trickery or stooges, and magicians would have actually liked him a lot more because he wouldn't be lying for no reason. It's like saying "I don't use a Double Lift", there just is no reason to say that to your spectators.

Well, you don't say "I don't use a Double Lift" because usually people don't suspect that you do. However, if the spectators suspect that you do you better lie and try to convince them that you dont do a Double Lift. But I don't know how you would do, maybe you would just confess and stop the trick? I think most people are aware of that magicians might use camera trickery and stooges and might suspect that, so there IS a reason for that kind of lie. It's the same as saying "This is a fair shuffle" if you can convince people that it is fair (but in reality it is false), which might be better than if you just do a shuffle without commenting upon it and later people start to suspect it wasn't a fair shuffle. Anyway, Criss got his style and I'm not very fond of it, but I don't think what he is doing is immoral or something, other then his stoogery and camera-trickery might make laymen think every magician use those kind if tricks.