Magic as a social tool.

OliveroG · 02-23-2012, 03:14 AM

We all are aware to the fact that magic is often used as a tool to help the social life of the magician, since magic by itself requires us to perform to many people (to practice or because we're getting paid, or for any reason) it's possible to think about magic as first as a tool rather than an art, that's what happens with most of the magicians when they're starting, but, is this really good or bad?

I'm going to share this example Max Maven gave me: Imagine you are in a room where there is a big silk hanging on the wall, this silk has a drawing on it, and lets say this is the masterpiece of some famous paintor and it costs millions of dollars. Now, imagine that something started a fire, a person got close and now that person is on fire, in life danger. You see that and run to the silk, take it, and use it to extinct that fire, is this good or bad? of course is good, you saved that person's life which is more valuable than the silk, but two things happened to that silk, it was used for something OTHER than its purpose (saying that its purpose is to be shown and to comunicate beauty of art and stuff) and we can also say that the silk (of course) didn't ended as well as it started.

The example above can also aply to the magic used as a tool, because the same thing happens in a lower scale, magic can actually save a person's social life (psicologically helping that person and probably stoping him from becoming a serial killer xD), but two things happened to magic in that case, it wasn't used for its original purpose (comunicate as an art) and it didn't ended as well as it started (this is because when magic is used as a social tool, generally is overused, and sometimes the secret can be revealed just to get more attention, as in youtube revealers).

So guys, many of us, including me, started in magic to get more friends and to meet more people, the difference is that the lower part of us (it's always the lower part) realized that magic is more than a tool, and starting developing it as an art. What do you think about this?

la0o9 · 02-23-2012, 05:13 AM

well, to be honest, i still think and use magic as a tool, i call it an art, but it's hard to really judge one from another, what really IS magic as an art? using the method as best as you can while presenting it as something that isn't possible or unlikely to happen? or is it perfect execution of the method while saying that it is simple means of sleight of hand? not exposing or falsely do so to hype up the performance?

TommySteal · 02-23-2012, 12:01 PM

Many years ago I used to study "art". Nothing specific, just a general course if you like, and if one so wished they could then go on to specialize in one or two areas. I'm not saying I am qualified to talk about art (actually I'm not because I never did complete the course, to gain that certificate) - but I have thought a lot about what "art" is.

Oscar Wilde once said something like "However someone wishes to express themselves, and at the same time being completely honest and open with themselves, then in doing just that they are creating "art". Does this mean that not "only" a thing of beauty should be looked at as art, but also the grotesque?

I like this idea, but with it in mind, I'm not sure Marcos about what you mean when you say "from using magic as a social tool, you are now developing it into an art form". Perhaps the meeting of new people by using magic as a social tool is already art?

Mark · 02-23-2012, 02:01 PM

I'd say it depends on how you approach it. If you learn magic merely to impress your friends and to try to get a girlfriend and such, you probably won't be serious enough about it and you most likely will end up looking like a 'guy doing tricks' instead of a 'magician'.

That said, there are people who teach magic to others for the sake of boosting these people's self-confidence (it is easy to teach a self-working card trick to someone who lacks confidence in the real world, that they can go out and are able to connect with others using that card trick, easier than with other art forms really). In that case, the art would be merely a social tool (of its purest kind), unless the person in question wants to move on in the art.

If magic is learned (and taught) for a totally different reason than the magic itself and there is dedication towards that goal, this is not a bad thing. An example of that is that magic is taught as a confidence-booster as described. (If you do that, you would still have to make sure that the art remains its secrecy though, not that whoever you helped out ends up exposing it. If the person wants to move on in the art, this would definitely be the best-case scenario.)

If magic is learned for the magic, you better be serious about it, or about trying it. If it is learned with the goal to merely impress friends and getting a girlfriend, I'd say this is a bad thing because in this case there usually is a terrible lack of dedication, which in case of actual magicians and in case of for instance the confidence-boosting is very present, regardless of what the dedication is aimed at.

OliveroG · 02-23-2012, 02:45 PM

I agree with Oscar Wilde quote here, art is any human creation that tries to express something by being honest. The thing is that most of the times, when we start doing magic, we don't focus on expressing anything, we're all exited because we are learning secrets and if we perform the tricks, we will be doing them just exactly as shown in the dvd, or as described in the book, changing nothing. After you have developed enough skill (technically, in presentation, psichologically) you can start focusing on something else than just performing the game, generally people don't notice when they're doing art (because for them, they're just saying something they think) so i wouldn't be right to call it "developing it as an art" which is a mistake i wrote, i believe that what Mark said is more accurate: "If magic is learned for the magic, you better be serious about it, or about trying it".
Something i have to correct about what i said is about the "developing it as an art" part, when we start doing magic (and generally is to get more attention), as i said, we're exited about technique and blah blah, but in the minory, there comes a point when you stop, and look at your job, and say "What am i doing?" then you start like remembering all you have done and say "All i have been doing is crap." after that, there are two ways a magician can go, he will quit magic, or start "all over again" which is just relearning the effects, re-reading some books, taking more serious magic. This have happened to most of the magicians i know and even to me, so i believe that every magician happens to this phase (not sure, everyone is different). Also, you become a real "Guy who does some tricks" when this "phase" doesn't get you early enough, someone i know is the exact stereotype, he just walks with his friends, and when he meets new people, he takes the cards and start doing the same thing he did to meet the people he is with, and then he explains everything he did.

TommySteal · 02-23-2012, 03:12 PM

My reply was kind of to la0o9, as he seemed unsure of the difference between magic being a tool and an art form. If we establish that all "art" is merely the way one expresses them self, maybe there is no difference?

I agree with Marcos that most people are unaware that they are "doing art", as you put it

la0o9 · 02-23-2012, 11:11 PM

So it would seem that magic, used to communicate and to socialize primarily( the main emphasis of the conversation(s) is the trick) is just "tricks", and interaction with other people with magic being a secondary thing( the subjects being talked about are primary, magic acts as an add-on that wouldn't be missed if not present but invaluable if present) being an "art"?

i personally think the above is true, because while everyone needs something to talk about, but not many NEED magic in a casual conversation. BTW, all that i've been saying is only in a street magic or non-stage situations( if it's stage magic then i have a different concept about what art is)

TommySteal · 02-24-2012, 12:28 PM

La, the two scenarios you explained above, in my opinion, can both be interpreted as "art" - that is if one believes that "art" is simply the way which one chooses to express themself.

In the social situation I agree that magic often acts as an add-on or ice-breaker, and of course it wouldn't be missed if it was never present, but say if it was the magic that got you talking, whether it be solely about the trick or whatever, how could that be invaluable?

la0o9 · 02-24-2012, 10:20 PM

doesn't "invaluable" mean "priceless"? i was talking about how magic isn't missed if never present but very valuable if is.

TommySteal · 02-24-2012, 11:25 PM

Magic is valuable.... according to us, as magicians. And to follow your point, if something is never present then surely it will never be missed?

la0o9 · 02-25-2012, 06:09 AM

ok... i'm not following, what are you saying? my fault for not being clear at the start, but i seriously don't know what you're saying

TommySteal · 02-25-2012, 05:06 PM

Sorry dude, maybe someone else can enlighten us

Mark · 02-25-2012, 11:04 PM

It seems like you guys are on the exact same page.

And 'invaluable' indeed means priceless/worth a lot.

However, I would personally (even though magic is always an art, as that is just what it is) never call it an art if it isn't used for the purpose of being that, or if not enough effort and practice is put into it. I think the same about every art form as for that.

OliveroG · 02-25-2012, 11:42 PM

I agree with Mark.

02-23-2012, 03:14 AM	#1
OliveroG Marcos Olivero Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Venezuela Posts: 103	Magic as a social tool. We all are aware to the fact that magic is often used as a tool to help the social life of the magician, since magic by itself requires us to perform to many people (to practice or because we're getting paid, or for any reason) it's possible to think about magic as first as a tool rather than an art, that's what happens with most of the magicians when they're starting, but, is this really good or bad? I'm going to share this example Max Maven gave me: Imagine you are in a room where there is a big silk hanging on the wall, this silk has a drawing on it, and lets say this is the masterpiece of some famous paintor and it costs millions of dollars. Now, imagine that something started a fire, a person got close and now that person is on fire, in life danger. You see that and run to the silk, take it, and use it to extinct that fire, is this good or bad? of course is good, you saved that person's life which is more valuable than the silk, but two things happened to that silk, it was used for something OTHER than its purpose (saying that its purpose is to be shown and to comunicate beauty of art and stuff) and we can also say that the silk (of course) didn't ended as well as it started. The example above can also aply to the magic used as a tool, because the same thing happens in a lower scale, magic can actually save a person's social life (psicologically helping that person and probably stoping him from becoming a serial killer xD), but two things happened to magic in that case, it wasn't used for its original purpose (comunicate as an art) and it didn't ended as well as it started (this is because when magic is used as a social tool, generally is overused, and sometimes the secret can be revealed just to get more attention, as in youtube revealers). So guys, many of us, including me, started in magic to get more friends and to meet more people, the difference is that the lower part of us (it's always the lower part) realized that magic is more than a tool, and starting developing it as an art. What do you think about this?

02-23-2012, 05:13 AM	#2
la0o9 Move monkey atm Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Not where you'd want to go :P Posts: 747	well, to be honest, i still think and use magic as a tool, i call it an art, but it's hard to really judge one from another, what really IS magic as an art? using the method as best as you can while presenting it as something that isn't possible or unlikely to happen? or is it perfect execution of the method while saying that it is simple means of sleight of hand? not exposing or falsely do so to hype up the performance? __________________ "Doubt isn't the same as saying people are bad, it simply means you actually care, 100% trust is nothing more than ignorance"~ Akiyama Shinichi- Liar Game "It's not the destination but the road to it that is worth the trip" "Be careful what you wish for... it might just come true"~ old saying "It's a small world, but only relatively" "Reality is not the world, it is the way humankind depicts the world, thus when you alter a person's way of seeing the world, you alter reality itself"

02-23-2012, 12:01 PM	#3
TommySteal Tom Join Date: May 2011 Location: Italy Posts: 274	Many years ago I used to study "art". Nothing specific, just a general course if you like, and if one so wished they could then go on to specialize in one or two areas. I'm not saying I am qualified to talk about art (actually I'm not because I never did complete the course, to gain that certificate) - but I have thought a lot about what "art" is. Oscar Wilde once said something like "However someone wishes to express themselves, and at the same time being completely honest and open with themselves, then in doing just that they are creating "art". Does this mean that not "only" a thing of beauty should be looked at as art, but also the grotesque? I like this idea, but with it in mind, I'm not sure Marcos about what you mean when you say "from using magic as a social tool, you are now developing it into an art form". Perhaps the meeting of new people by using magic as a social tool is already art? __________________ My cigar is not a symbol. It's only a cigar. - Sigmund Freud

02-23-2012, 03:12 PM	#6
TommySteal Tom Join Date: May 2011 Location: Italy Posts: 274	My reply was kind of to la0o9, as he seemed unsure of the difference between magic being a tool and an art form. If we establish that all "art" is merely the way one expresses them self, maybe there is no difference? I agree with Marcos that most people are unaware that they are "doing art", as you put it __________________ My cigar is not a symbol. It's only a cigar. - Sigmund Freud

02-23-2012, 11:11 PM	#7
la0o9 Move monkey atm Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Not where you'd want to go :P Posts: 747	So it would seem that magic, used to communicate and to socialize primarily( the main emphasis of the conversation(s) is the trick) is just "tricks", and interaction with other people with magic being a secondary thing( the subjects being talked about are primary, magic acts as an add-on that wouldn't be missed if not present but invaluable if present) being an "art"? i personally think the above is true, because while everyone needs something to talk about, but not many NEED magic in a casual conversation. BTW, all that i've been saying is only in a street magic or non-stage situations( if it's stage magic then i have a different concept about what art is) __________________ "Doubt isn't the same as saying people are bad, it simply means you actually care, 100% trust is nothing more than ignorance"~ Akiyama Shinichi- Liar Game "It's not the destination but the road to it that is worth the trip" "Be careful what you wish for... it might just come true"~ old saying "It's a small world, but only relatively" "Reality is not the world, it is the way humankind depicts the world, thus when you alter a person's way of seeing the world, you alter reality itself"

02-23-2012, 02:01 PM	#4
Mark Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 935	I'd say it depends on how you approach it. If you learn magic merely to impress your friends and to try to get a girlfriend and such, you probably won't be serious enough about it and you most likely will end up looking like a 'guy doing tricks' instead of a 'magician'. That said, there are people who teach magic to others for the sake of boosting these people's self-confidence (it is easy to teach a self-working card trick to someone who lacks confidence in the real world, that they can go out and are able to connect with others using that card trick, easier than with other art forms really). In that case, the art would be merely a social tool (of its purest kind), unless the person in question wants to move on in the art. If magic is learned (and taught) for a totally different reason than the magic itself and there is dedication towards that goal, this is not a bad thing. An example of that is that magic is taught as a confidence-booster as described. (If you do that, you would still have to make sure that the art remains its secrecy though, not that whoever you helped out ends up exposing it. If the person wants to move on in the art, this would definitely be the best-case scenario.) If magic is learned for the magic, you better be serious about it, or about trying it. If it is learned with the goal to merely impress friends and getting a girlfriend, I'd say this is a bad thing because in this case there usually is a terrible lack of dedication, which in case of actual magicians and in case of for instance the confidence-boosting is very present, regardless of what the dedication is aimed at.

02-23-2012, 02:45 PM	#5
OliveroG Marcos Olivero Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Venezuela Posts: 103	I agree with Oscar Wilde quote here, art is any human creation that tries to express something by being honest. The thing is that most of the times, when we start doing magic, we don't focus on expressing anything, we're all exited because we are learning secrets and if we perform the tricks, we will be doing them just exactly as shown in the dvd, or as described in the book, changing nothing. After you have developed enough skill (technically, in presentation, psichologically) you can start focusing on something else than just performing the game, generally people don't notice when they're doing art (because for them, they're just saying something they think) so i wouldn't be right to call it "developing it as an art" which is a mistake i wrote, i believe that what Mark said is more accurate: "If magic is learned for the magic, you better be serious about it, or about trying it". Something i have to correct about what i said is about the "developing it as an art" part, when we start doing magic (and generally is to get more attention), as i said, we're exited about technique and blah blah, but in the minory, there comes a point when you stop, and look at your job, and say "What am i doing?" then you start like remembering all you have done and say "All i have been doing is crap." after that, there are two ways a magician can go, he will quit magic, or start "all over again" which is just relearning the effects, re-reading some books, taking more serious magic. This have happened to most of the magicians i know and even to me, so i believe that every magician happens to this phase (not sure, everyone is different). Also, you become a real "Guy who does some tricks" when this "phase" doesn't get you early enough, someone i know is the exact stereotype, he just walks with his friends, and when he meets new people, he takes the cards and start doing the same thing he did to meet the people he is with, and then he explains everything he did.

02-24-2012, 12:28 PM	#8
TommySteal Tom Join Date: May 2011 Location: Italy Posts: 274	La, the two scenarios you explained above, in my opinion, can both be interpreted as "art" - that is if one believes that "art" is simply the way which one chooses to express themself. In the social situation I agree that magic often acts as an add-on or ice-breaker, and of course it wouldn't be missed if it was never present, but say if it was the magic that got you talking, whether it be solely about the trick or whatever, how could that be invaluable? __________________ My cigar is not a symbol. It's only a cigar. - Sigmund Freud

02-24-2012, 10:20 PM	#9
la0o9 Move monkey atm Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Not where you'd want to go :P Posts: 747	doesn't "invaluable" mean "priceless"? i was talking about how magic isn't missed if never present but very valuable if is. __________________ "Doubt isn't the same as saying people are bad, it simply means you actually care, 100% trust is nothing more than ignorance"~ Akiyama Shinichi- Liar Game "It's not the destination but the road to it that is worth the trip" "Be careful what you wish for... it might just come true"~ old saying "It's a small world, but only relatively" "Reality is not the world, it is the way humankind depicts the world, thus when you alter a person's way of seeing the world, you alter reality itself"

02-24-2012, 11:25 PM	#10
TommySteal Tom Join Date: May 2011 Location: Italy Posts: 274	Magic is valuable.... according to us, as magicians. And to follow your point, if something is never present then surely it will never be missed? __________________ My cigar is not a symbol. It's only a cigar. - Sigmund Freud

02-25-2012, 06:09 AM	#11
la0o9 Move monkey atm Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Not where you'd want to go :P Posts: 747	ok... i'm not following, what are you saying? my fault for not being clear at the start, but i seriously don't know what you're saying __________________ "Doubt isn't the same as saying people are bad, it simply means you actually care, 100% trust is nothing more than ignorance"~ Akiyama Shinichi- Liar Game "It's not the destination but the road to it that is worth the trip" "Be careful what you wish for... it might just come true"~ old saying "It's a small world, but only relatively" "Reality is not the world, it is the way humankind depicts the world, thus when you alter a person's way of seeing the world, you alter reality itself"

02-25-2012, 05:06 PM	#12
TommySteal Tom Join Date: May 2011 Location: Italy Posts: 274	Sorry dude, maybe someone else can enlighten us __________________ My cigar is not a symbol. It's only a cigar. - Sigmund Freud

02-25-2012, 11:04 PM	#13
Mark Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 935	It seems like you guys are on the exact same page. And 'invaluable' indeed means priceless/worth a lot. However, I would personally (even though magic is always an art, as that is just what it is) never call it an art if it isn't used for the purpose of being that, or if not enough effort and practice is put into it. I think the same about every art form as for that.

02-25-2012, 11:42 PM	#14
OliveroG Marcos Olivero Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Venezuela Posts: 103	I agree with Mark.