If an Octopus Could Palm....65 DOLLARS??? This is why I like only DarkSleightZ.
The Dan and Dave products are changed from sharing the art to making a living by conning people (like Monet, AP, TOP, Uzumaki, Sybling and now this...)

65 bucks for a thin book that comes with a deck of cards?! Woot?! And I didn't see anything original in the trailer either. Seems like a bunch of independent recreations and tweaks to classics they (apparently) renamed.

The way Dave performs some of those techniques and applications in the trailer look a bit too cardist'y to me too, not the way palming applications are supposed to look like. Maybe just good practice material? :thinking:

But yeah... that's just... wrong! :(

indeed, I just saw the trailer the other day, I am waiting for a review though.
It all doesnt seem very practical....
just like their trilogy dvd. there is some useful stuff in it, but I will almost never do the jonas change live....
just saying.
I dont know what to expect from this.

David Berglas & Kaufman's 'The Berglas Effects': Book of 400 pages + 3 DVDs + 3D effects/glasses = $200 ($215 if outside US; first sold for $150/$165)

Lennart Green's 'Master Files': 4 DVDs + Deck of cards + 'Stolen Cards' = $150 ($160 if outside US)

Dan & Dave's 'If An Octopus Could Palm': Thin book (probably about 50 pages) + Deck of cards = $64.95 + shipping

Dan & Dave's 'If An Octopus Could Palm - Uncut Sheet': Uncut sheet of playing cards = $41.95 (or $47.95 if outside US)

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Comparing master magicians' life works to 'If An Octopus Could Palm' shows some people must think a 'little' too high of themselves. Keep in mind that all of these products were released in limited amounts, because some people think that's the reason for the high price of D&D's book and such.

'In An Octopus Could Palm' is approximately 1/7th of 'The Berglas Effects' or 'Master Files' as for its content, and then I'm being extremely generous.

In the trailer for "If An Octopus Could Palm," I spotted quite a few flashes, too.

Hey, most of the main magic industries these days are overpriced by default.

Honestly, I'm the first to say that magic is very cheap nowadays (grand illusions still are way expensive though, but I think close-up/street magic isn't overpriced, at least... usually it's not). And I know that every single one of our products are way under-priced too.

But everyone can tell that 'If An Octopus Could Palm' is too expensive by all means, when comparing it to either other D&D products or to the rest of the magic industry as a whole. 'The Trilogy' is sold for $85 and contains almost three times as much content. This book should've been sold for no more than $35 (you can calculate it in many ways and each calculation would (and should) give you that price as a maximum).

the new DnD book first looked cool, and exciting... but then i saw the price, it's worth no where near that amount... and even if some people could re-sell the deck again( they said it's an original deck, and never printed again), it's not going to be anywhere expensive enough to cover the rest of the book( the art isn't that good, no idea about the quality, but i predict 20$ max for die-hard collectors)

Looks interesting but way overpriced for my palette

When I saw the trailer I thought. "That looks awesome" when I saw it was 65$ dollars I was like WWWWWWHHHAAA

Wow. They just deleted all negative comments about the price and the book. Why do they want us to buy it, if they don't care about their supporters opinion?!:eek::mad:

Here comes the worst thing:
So you spend $65 on something incomplete and would have to spend another couple of bucks on the fundamentals of palming? And why is this only said 10 hours ago on Twitter? It's essential information if you'd ask me. :thinking:

That is my main concern and what my main frustration comes from. This price is an insult to their supporters. They know their supporters got this kind of money or have parents with the money (many of them got 'The Trilogy' for X-mas or their birthdays). However, this book would be much more difficult to get. First off, the decks will probably be sold out far before the end of December and secondly, it's a really thin book rather than 3 fully filled DVDs.

*Gathers spit* Katoo! *Spits on the book*

Did anyone actually wonder about those companies' clothing prices (those companies being DnD and T11)? Dan and Dave sell t-shirts for $37.95, Theory11 sells theirs for $49.95 and their hoodies are as expensive as $75(?!?!). Why can Ellusionist actually sell theirs for the normal price of $19.95, pretty similar to what we asked for shirts ourselves. It's not that the quality couldn't be much better (or could it, Albert?). :thinking:

I highly doubt that the quality is that much better. They seriously are overpriced. These companies seems to think that they are 'the' luxury brands in the world of card magic and are overcharging things, thinking their brand is backing them up. It's really ridiculous. The shirts that you sell are very good quality. Although I'm sure there could be better quality ones, it definitely does not lack and is a very good price for $20.

So, my thinking is, those companies are getting full of themselves, thinking that they are the Gucci, Prada, or Louis Vuitton of the world of magic, that they are the representative companies of magic.

All they are is a group of stupid dinosaurs! ;)

Biggest problem is that nor Dan and Dave nor T11 are actual clothing designers. If Gucci would start making paper playing cards, those decks better be under $7 each or else they can't be taken serious. How in the right mind could magic/card companies think of putting such high prices for (non-magical) clothing?!

Okay wait, we know they don't have right minds. But I just hope that someone within those companies stands up someday and talks some sense into the managers because this is getting nuts.

What's worse is that there are suckers who fall for that... >.< ;

Have you been to a Gucci store recently? Of course they would be taken seriously, since anyone entering their shop is already expecting a certain kind of price tag on their items. In fact if Gucci honestly started making decks of cards it would make no sense at all to be selling them at a "standard" price. "When you buy Gucci cards you are not just buying glorified paper, you are buying decades of design experience and excellence... now applied to card manufacturing and design!".

I think we should be more realistic about T11 and D&D. They weren't started for us. They were started to make money, like ALL OTHER COMPANIES. We all know that its common practice among "designer" companies to produce stuff they supposedly do not specialise in, and charge a bomb for it. Dan and Dave's and Theory11's approach is no different to many other companies. So who decides if they are "designer" labels or not? THEY DO! They choose the "image" they want for their company and base their pricing approach on that. NOT solely on the actual quality of their products. If we don't like it we don't buy it and they go out of business, period.

For example: If you went to the right Ferrari factory or perhaps their HQ, you would probably find a "souvenir shop" (also see FreddieW's recent visit to STEAM HQ). That would undoubtedly house many products, such as hoodies, watches, pens, doorstops, teddies, maybe even Ferrari-made after-dinner-mints!!! These are not products Ferrari claims to be amazing at making, but they will still cost above what you would expect for the same product bought on the high street because you are in the FERRARI souvenir shop. They can charge what they like based on what their own opinion of their brand is. So if T11, or whoever, think they are "specialists" in magic products, and they charge a bomb for a normal hoody just because it has "T11" printed on it then they are only following the same business model as countless other companies which charge "above what I'd like to pay" for their products. This is not a big deal and its not at all new. They would have gone out of business long ago if everyone thought they were a rip-off.

I think we should just put this down to DIFFERENT BUSINESS MODELS. People have different ideas of how they want to run their company. And afterall, it is theirs, they can run it however they like, and we can vote with our feet. The question is... is it working for them? Clearly the answer is yes. Some people do appreciate what they offer, or they would not still be in business. So are they just being selfish, or are they actually being good businessmen?

The bottom line: Dan & Dave, Theory 11, and others, have just had the business brains to realise that the magic industry had room for "designer labels" and they have started companies to fill those gaps. Those who don't like it shop elsewhere; those who do like it are keeping them in business.

Usually it's based on exclusivity though. My mom got some nice and original Gucci glasses, shoes and stuff which were way cheap compared to the things Gucci is known for: exclusive, wearable gear (the things she got are still wearable, just not as exclusive). I actually don't know any exclusive brand that would overprize any of the products they don't have an expertise in, especially if they didn't make those products together with another company which does have the expertise.

If DnD and T11 think they are such high class, have them increase the prices of all of their releases at least, not just of a single book or of clothes. And they should definitely not make it look like everyone can afford such products and that they are happy to see the viewers be inspired by it if only few of their usual costumers can afford and bought/will buy the book. They overhyped it as always.

It is as if a company usually sells $500 computers and then suddenly releases a computer of $4000 while it doesn't offer much more but some applications you will probably never use, yet marketing it the same if not more than any other product and not including the price tag in their campaigns.

Here is my list of disappointing magic tricks or sleights in the magic industry.
Top - AP
Monet - AP
Flo - Lee Asher
The Fan Control - Joe Paschall (Do not buy it!)
The Jiggle Pass - AP (Seriously, a Classic Pass with a jiggle. Let's call it a new name :D)
That's pretty much it :S

You make a great point. My only doubt or rather, curiosity (?), lies in the fact that these companies either seriously believe that they are those high-label brands or they are utilizing their target market of younger people (who usually get gifts from parents) and implanting into their brains that they are awesome, that they are the representatives of magic, making those younger people want to buy it. This is a great business tactic, but also at the same time, very very filthy since they, in reality, are NOT the awesome brand they claim to be. They simply manipulate their target market into making their parents buy it for them especially since those parents don't know anything about the magic market.

It really is not cool how they manipulate vulnerable people like that.

^ My thoughts exactly. I think there is nothing wrong with doing business and making tons of bucks if your plans work out fine, but as soon as the business gets dirty I'm the first to say so.

It's one thing to get yourself a solid group of customers, it's another to give them the feel of needing everything you release and spending much much more on a product they usually did and would.

Upon further reflection on the whole issue, I believe that internet magic as a whole is solely for profit, not for the art of magic. Almost every technique and many routines can be found in excellent books, and if you delve past the standards (eatct, expert card technique, etc.), you can find many nuanced things all for the price of one gimmick you'll never use. The whole point of downloads is to get people relying on that website for info on magic. Thus people get in the habit of relying on magic companies to tell them what they need to buy, as opposed to searching for themselves and using their own judgement

Don't you think that's a little too black and white? :thinking:

Business is business. One goes into business to make a profit, not to break even. In order to achieve a good return for one's efforts, tactics must be applied. Advertising! Dan and Dave have a relatively small empire, and frankly I've never seen any posters in my local bus shelter for smoke and mirrors playing cards or TV advertising the trilogy. Remember this is magic. Magic has always been expensive, as a way to protect the art probably.
Complaining about the price of a book just sounds to me like moaning.

It seems like some people are not understanding what point Mark and I are trying to make here. We are not simply complaining that the price for the book is high. We are trying to say that DnD have the guts to make the prices unreasonably high without a good reason. What secret is there to keep in a $75 hoody? Why is that more expensive than a magic DVD or a book?

They are not simply putting a high price to guard the secret; they are doing it for pure profit reasons and that reason does not coincide with keeping its secrets.

Tell me, is DnD even comparable to Ed Marlo, Dai Vernon, Tommy Wonder, Jeff Sheridan, etc.? I don't; I believe they are far from them in terms of their knowledge and skills in magic. Now compare their books to the Expert at the Card Table. Which will help someone more in terms of card magic skills?

From my perspective, their objective does not coincide with a magician's objective: they seem to do it purely for profit, not to protect the art.

@Tommy: that's not the problem, the problem is that the knowledge sold with the book isn't worth THAT much money, they said it themselves, most of the ideas weren't practical, and even it they remodeled them so that they are to them, it might not be so for another magician who isn't as smooth with their hands as they are( and, as far as i know, there are many people who fits that criteria, they HAVE been perfecting their sleight of hand since high school). the practicality and the value of those ideas aren't worth as much as 65$, considering books like "paper engine" or "the card magic of LePaul" or "The Royal Road To Card Magic " all of which have as much if not more confirmed material good for use in everyday magic, and can all be bought at the same price as that single book. It's not moaning, it's protest that they overpriced the book, tho as a standpoint, everyone is free to do as they wish with their money.

But what you are talking about here is, quite literally, advertising; this is the very nature of the beast! There are countless adverts on tv, targeted at the correct times to hit youngsters while they are watching, and these adverts are doing the EXACT same thing - manipulating their target audience into making their parents buy whatever it may be, pokemon, barbie, etc ;) Toys, magic, sweets, whatever. We don't actually NEED any of it, and companies are competing to convince us and our parents that we DO need it all! So even if Theory11 secretly knows its not as good as it's making out to its customers but publicly acts like its great then what have we got? Absolutely NOTHING new in the world of business - in fact nearly all companies "big themselves up". So if now we are having a go at Theory 11 for "targeting" a young audience and "manipulating" them, then we should also be against, lets face it, most if not all advertising which is aimed at children.

Ever heard of Coca-Cola? It's widely known as one of the ultimate success stories of the power of advertising over the actual quality of a product. Think about it - by far the biggest drink brand on the entire planet, but what is it? Where did it come from? (I mean what planet). It doesn't even have a name for the flavour; it's just "coke". Can anyone tell me why its so popular? Not because its the best tasting drink in the world; not by a long shot. The sole reason for Coke's success is advertising. But if you don't like the taste of Coke then you may say "they are not the awesome brand they claim to be and are purposely ripping us off". Clearly this is just your opinion and their success belies the fact that there's is obviously more to this than just one big hoodwinking scam. Maybe it's down to your taste!

Are we really to think the Theory11 guys are sat in their office thinking "we aren't that good but lets make out that we are to fool our customers and sell more than we should! Muahahahahaaa!". Nope. Its as simple as this: They have chosen their approach, they are confident with their brand (whether right or wrong), and they think the prices are justified (whether right or wrong). The truth of the rights and wrongs come down to opinions and nothing more. No more evil conspiracies or purposeful hoodwinking of customers than many, many other companies - just a different approach to the one that you would like for a magic business.

:angel: I guess I'm just more forgiving of different peoples ideas and approaches to the magic business than you guys are, but thats ok; I am amazing like that ^_^

Of course, what you say makes perfect sense and you are correct. Business always runs like that, but being a magician, I don't like the fact that those secrets are used to manipulate people into making profit. I firmly believe that those secrets should be used for more noble reasons, not purely for profit. It's like the art is being used for the wrong reasons.

I wish I was as articulate as you Finspeare. Although I mentioned Advertising in my previous post it didn't have quite the effect I was hoping for. Darn

---------- Post added at 09:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 AM ----------

What secrets are you talking about Albert?

Simply secrets of a trick. When a company sells a product, usually, it's just for the consumption of the good, not for the secret on how to replicate it. But magic is sold for both its consumption (such as the DVD being watched) and also for its replication (us being taught how to perform it).

Yes, I understand that, I just didn't get your wording on your last post about using secrets for more noble reasons - I take you mean for people's fun and entertainment. If that's the case, I wouldn't worry about it damaging the art of magic. Most people love to see something out of the ordinary. But unfortunately, like everything, it comes at a price.

alex pandrea is really annoying. the brick pass was like the bestseller on penguin, i was like wtff? its just a pass, for nearly 20 bucks -.-

I still think that there is a huge difference between advertising/marketing/branding and misleading/fooling customers and supporters. There is nothing wrong with the first ones (it used to be the biggest part of what I studied at university) but the last ones are either morally wrong or even illegal by many country's laws in case of misleading (making false statements, leaving out essential information and such).

Obviously, morals differ from person to person. However, if main customers and supporters of a company disagree on something, ignoring it or even removing such criticism (being the company in question) is considered to be morally wrong by most people, if not all but the company itself.

Check out the Gucci playing cards. About $600 or so. I had no idea.

http://www.gucci.com/uk/styles/272026AA6102019#

LOL, great find. I can bet you that the case is actually what you pay for though. And it's a nice case, I must admit. ;)

I think those cards are Modiano's.

I've seen Tiffany cards go for reasonable prices. The Louis Vuitton decks are usually quite a bit more expensive, but I have never seen something with these prices before. You are surely correct that the case is a big factor in the cost. I'll have to keep my eyes open at yard sales and flea markets if I ever visit Beverly Hills or Newport, RI.

This really hits home with my opinion. I don't really find too much wrong with t11's capitalistic approach to magic and merchandise, as some of the real, big secrets are kept by the better performers who invented them, whereas t11 sells smaller stuff that a lot of people don't really mind if it gets revealed.

However, they push it sometimes. The renaming of old moves is a bit much, as well as a few lies they have told to try and sell products, just tiny little things that would be fixed after complaints. It shows they are getting a little ahead of themselves and their ideas. What got to me the most though was the advertising, when you read a description of a product, and you just know that Jonathan Bayme wrote it, his excessive use of commas, pauses and capitalisation is just so damn annoying. It makes all of their products sound the same, and if I see the words 'subtleties' and 'nuances' one more time I think I could strangle someone. Its so bad that he literally types his forum posts like a magic advertisement, and repeats himself to the point of ridiculousness, he isn't the only one either, its like they have a policy to write like that to all questions, complaints and comments. The more someone has to do with the company the worse it gets, just their stupid over justification of what they are saying to you, its kind of patronising to their customers, sometimes it like instead of addressing someone directly, they would rather direct it at everyone who might happen to read the post, which makes it seem like they don't really care what you have to say. If you're looking for an example read the description for Regeneration, or any of his forum posts.
So really, if everything was dialled down a little bit, I don't think I would have too much of a problem with t11, the forum community is actually pretty good, aside from a couple of know-it-all users and the rate of illiteracy seems to be quite high.

I actually quite like the whole exclusiveness thing, damn, if I could afford it, I would have the biggest collection of all the pretty custom decks, particularly the rare ones. I admit, I love my Monarchs, they do design very beautiful cards. I'm glad to have the white ones too, the rarest deck I own, I plan on selling them though. The whole rare collectible thing really creates a pretty good community with a healthy bit of competition:D. I dislike uncut decks though, they should be way cheaper, and don't look that good I dont think. What I did like was I saw someone on eBay once selling a frame-able sheet that had a collection of single cards from rare decks, so you arent just looking at the same thing printed over and over. So if you had like 15 rare decks, you could get a nice wall hanging, and you would have 54 of them, he was selling them cheap too, which I though was a brilliant way to have a card collection.

Apart from t11, the only other pretty bad ones are The Blue Crown and Ellusionist, but then again, they aren't that bad. Obviously The Blue Crown for Alex Pandrea's re releases, and I just generally dont like him, but apart from that, they have some good stuff, and some nice collectible decks:)

As far as I've seen, Ellusionist isn't that bad at all, excepting their horribly designed website, theres not much there as far as magic releases go that interests me, but I'm actually looking into buying some of their decks pretty soon.

Anyway, thats just my two cents :)