View Full Version : Complaints about Andrei Jikh and Theory11
Kelan
08-18-2011, 06:55 PM
Hey Everyone!
A lot of people will probably know who Andrei Jikh is. He's an artist over at theory11 and was involved in a few projects with them (A few 1 on 1's and Gen. vol 1 and 2). He's talented and all, but theory 11 and Andrei changed the meaning of cardistry. Cardistry use to mean "Card magic". Theory11 and Andrei changed the meaning of Cardistry to flourishing/XCM. Zack (magiczack24) tried pointing this out to everyone, and it resulted in a huge "thing". If you want more info, here is the link: http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?33690-How-s-this
Andrei also stole flourishes from his mentor, De'vo. He also cheated in the World XCM Tournament. If you want info on this, here is the link: http://handlordz.com/forum/showthread.php?20778-Andrei-Jikh-CHEATED-in-the-World-XCM-Tournament-Cardistry
I also HATE theory11. They falsely advertise half of their stuff. Take "GPS" by Chris Kenner. They say it's completely impromptu, but it requires a massive set-up. (http://www.theory11.com/tricks/gps-chris-kenner.php)
Or "Invisible Reverse" (http://www.theory11.com/tricks/invisible-reverse-chris-kenner.php)
Beware!!!
Also, here is a link to De'vo himself explaining the difference between cardistry and flourishing/XCM: http://handlordz.com/forum/showthread.php?20787-For-Magicians-Names-for-manipulating-playing-cards-clarified
KGaborMagic
08-18-2011, 07:05 PM
Yeah, everybody hates theory11. :D
But I can't say anything to Andrei's story. De'vo likes to manipulate people, so I can't really believe what he says (although he's very talented and I respect his works). What I know that Andrei is one of the bests, and he is a very big inspiration for me.;)
And I use the word 'cardistry' as incredible things that one can do with a deck of cards (magic, gambling and flourishing aswell.)
Alexander
08-18-2011, 07:27 PM
I never liked how theory11 deals with the descriptions of the effects they sell, and also how much their tricks cost. 5 bucks for self-working trick? Are you ****** up, dear theory11 owners?
UPD: What about Andrei, I do not know. I only know that he's very good at cardistry and he's russian, so get your hands off of him :D
I define cardistry the way it is today. It's just like the 'Cardini Change' (http://magiciansthegathering.com/community/showthread.php?p=858&postcount=4) which is nothing like Cardini's. Things tend to evolve in strange (almost magical) ways over time, so do those terms.
Also, 'XCM', as proud as De'vo and his Handlordz are of it, the term does NOT make sense. If there is one person in this world that does 'Xtreme Card Manipulation', it's Jeff McBride. Card manipulation to the extreme.
'Cardistry' on the other hand makes a lot more sense. Zack and the first publications put it as "the magical artistry of playing cards", true, but there is definitely no 'magic' in the word 'cardistry' so let it just be 'the artistry of playing cards'. It makes most sense of all terms. ^_^
On the De'vo topic, De'vo himself is probably the biggest manipulator in the world, not only for the flourishes but also for claiming them. He claims almost every single flourish out there and according to him, whatever his students came up with was actually created by him and stolen by them. I can only tell that De'vo himself is commonly the liar as for that. I don't know much about it in Andrei's case but I can only guess Andrei is just another victim.
And Theory11 is just bad (http://magiciansthegathering.com/community/showthread.php?t=99). We've said it many times and we won't change our mind anytime soon. Their 'Death of the Double Undercut' is probably the most ridiculous of all. They cut the price after quite some people bought it and majorly complained about it (I believe T11 never sent a refund to any of them) and it still is "overpriced" for what you get. :thinking:
It's not just Theory11 by the way, it's Ellusionist, it's The Blue Crown, it's Dan and Dave, it's Paper Crane Productions, even many independent artists, it's just the main magic industry today that's screwing it all up.
As for prices, I couldn't care less. Even if they would sell a 15-minute downloadable for $20, the art of magic still is way (if not too) open for the public these days. Then again, I'd rather have T11 sell $5 crap downloadables than I'd have anyone make a free, public tutorial for any trick. Cardistry is fine, there is no secret to that, and non-magical riddle/bar tricks would be approved by me too, but that's really about it.
But sure, Theory11 should stop lying to their customers! There is absolutely no reason for that other than hyping up things more than they have already been hyped. Telling the truth is not that difficult! :mad:
Albert
08-18-2011, 11:50 PM
But sure, Theory11 should stop lying to their costumers! There is absolutely no reason for that other than hyping up things more than they have already been hyped. Telling the truth is not that difficult! :mad:
^OMG! First mistake found in Mark's forum posts! >.<
We all still love you though Mark ;)
Kelan
08-19-2011, 12:29 AM
Guys, keep in mind that Andrei said "F**k off De'vo".
That alone is enough for me to start a threah exposing him.
---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------
Guys, keep in mind that Andrei said "F**k off De'vo".
That alone is enough for me to start a threah exposing him.
Andrei did this in one of his flourishing vids.
Oh, and guys, the link to De'vo coming out is now right and will lead you to his posts.
In-fighting, name calling, playground antics, stealing ideas. It's all very dramatic but is it really that important? I can't say I was ever planning on asking Andrei out to dinner so to be honest I couldn't care less what argument he may or may not be having with Devo. Getting involved in it all is no more useful to you or I than watching an episode of a bad soap on tv. To me it's just another distraction. If the parties involved weren't so famous we wouldn't be interested and it would be like all the other "argument" threads that fill so many forums. Devo did this, Andrei did that etc. The overriding question for me is "BUT WILL IT HELP ME IMPROVE MY CLASSIC PASS!!!!!" :rolleyes:
If the answer is no then I'm onto the next thread... :D
Basically, what matters to you and me is what these guys put out to the community. How good are their dvd's going to be for my education as a magician if I decide to buy them? When Andrei last took a dump, what he had for breakfast, or even who he is swearing at on a forum is not at all interesting to me and really doesn't affect anyone except the involved parties. These "flame wars" and related drama's can end up wasting alot of people's time. Just a warning.
Call me a grump if you like, I will understand ;)
Kelan
08-19-2011, 01:42 AM
In-fighting, name calling, playground antics, stealing ideas. It's all very dramatic but is it really that important? I can't say I was ever planning on asking Andrei out to dinner so to be honest I couldn't care less what argument he may or may not be having with Devo. Getting involved in it all is no more useful to you or I than watching an episode of a bad soap on tv. To me it's just another distraction. If the parties involved weren't so famous we wouldn't be interested and it would be like all the other "argument" threads that fill so many forums. Devo did this, Andrei did that etc. The overriding question for me is "BUT WILL IT HELP ME IMPROVE MY CLASSIC PASS!!!!!" :rolleyes:
If the answer is no then I'm onto the next thread... :D
Basically, what matters to you and me is what these guys put out to the community. How good are their dvd's going to be for my education as a magician if I decide to buy them? When Andrei last took a dump, what he had for breakfast, or even who he is swearing at on a forum is not at all interesting to me and really doesn't affect anyone except the involved parties. These "flame wars" and related drama's can end up wasting alot of people's time. Just a warning.
Call me a grump if you like, I will understand ;)
Fin, if you aren't interested in this kinda thing, don't read it ;)
^OMG! First mistake found in Mark's forum posts! >.<
We all still love you though Mark ;)
What? Didn't you know Theory11 has costum designers they lied to? :surprised::hm:
:rolleyes:
JK. Edited. :(
Well said, Kittydakat. I didn't read nor follow any of the links.
I did however read this thread though as I had no idea what it was about, until I had read it :eek: And I was just posting my opinion on what I'd call a "side-matter" that is often discussed when these sorts of things happen.. i.e. Whether anyone actually gains anything from it, and I don't think they do. Sorry if anyone found it offensive. I wasn't having a go at you for posting about it as I'm sure many will find it interesting. I personally also find it interesting to debate not so much "what was said" but "what is the point of it all and is there anything positive that can be gained from it". That is a valid question, for it could just be part of yet another "flame war" and we all know how productive those are. Anyone was welcome to enlighten me; I wasn't trying to say the thread was pointless or anything :cry:
TheMisdirectingHand
08-19-2011, 04:28 AM
What? Didn't you know Theory11 has costum designers they lied to? :surprised::hm:
:rolleyes:
JK. Edited. :(
HURRRRR.
All typos aside. This doesn't really look like it has much reason. They're discussing the definition of a long-used term. The terms have different meanings to different people. It's like asking, "What is the difference between a double lift and a double flip?"
As for Theory 11 and whether they are any good that's purely down to opinions. I personally have bought several products from them including "Digital Dissolve" and I have been very pleased with the quality, price and speed of delivery. I'm sure there are yet more dramas behind the scenes that I don't know about, including apparently something about the origin of the digital dissolve gimmick/routine that was eventually sorted out, but purely from a customers point of view (which is what I am, afterall) they have done well by me, so far; and Jason England's recent cover-pass video I found incredibly helpful, so thanks Jason.
Others may have a different opinion of course and I respect that. There are lots of other shops to choose from. If anyone from the UK wants some "local" recommendations drop me a pm; I've tried many of them. Some take alot longer to deliver than others!
Albert
08-19-2011, 07:27 AM
What? Didn't you know Theory11 has costum designers they lied to? :surprised::hm:
:rolleyes:
JK. Edited. :(
LOL! Double fail ;)
Seeing that this is an 'exposed' thread, the point of the matter is that the person or group being exposed are in the wrong. Not necessarily what term it being misused, but why this wrong use of the term led to a magician or group worth mentioning as bad.
There are satisfied people out there with Andrei Jikh's releases and Theory 11's releases, but that's not the issue here. The point is that Andrei got to where he was in a way that does not deserve the respect he is currently receiving from other young flourishers or magicians, who most likely has no clue about such an event, such as me.
Being satisfied with Theory11's products is all good and is to be expected from a company running a business. However, what is unethical is what kittydakat pointed out: they misinform their consumers on some of their products and so there are dissatisfied people as well, and for good reasons too; something that can be avoided through this thread.
In summary: Andrei Jikh is not as respectable as he is known to be and Theory11 has a tendency to over-exaggerate some of their products in a good way, when it simply is not.
End of story, no? ;)
I can't help that I woke up in the middle of the night, checked out the forums and posted that, and that a costume is 'kostuum' in Dutch, hence the typo. :cry:
End of story, no? ;)
Pretty much. ^_^
Kelan
08-19-2011, 02:35 PM
I hear ya Fin =)
Well said Albert.. I totally see the point now. I think I must have been in a rotten mood last night. Sorry everyone! I'm now off to whip myself with a beautiful "card whip" I made from invisible thread and some spare jokers :eek:
Albert
08-19-2011, 05:45 PM
Well said Albert.. I totally see the point now. I think I must have been in a rotten mood last night. Sorry everyone! I'm now off to whip myself with a beautiful "card whip" I made from invisible thread and some spare jokers :eek:
Well, at least we now know who the masochist here now :p
Travmang
08-19-2011, 05:48 PM
LOL I love how Mark edited the quote box to call you Starscream in all those wierd letters LOL! I love it! :D
la0o9
08-19-2011, 11:55 PM
well, i kinda hate much of T11's products so there's no reason to drag on that( tho i did find the ones done by Jason England very helpful and i loved Andrei's 2 flourish DVDs- personally, i don't care where something originated unless i have to credit them, so as long as i still have good flourishes to learn, i'm good). But the "cardistry" stuff, i use it like i hear it: 2-handed non-magical manipulation of a deck of cards, whatever it was in the past, it doesn't matter now that it's in the present, since things change according to how people use it, and there's no reason to fret over a change.
and there's no reason to fret over a change.
But what about smooth360? Fret city! Keeps me awake many a night :eek: ;)
Kelan
08-20-2011, 03:09 AM
there's no reason to fret over a change.
I disagree with that. Lets use the Elmsley count. Alex Elmsley created it back in the 1900's. What If I were to change it to the Kelan count? (My first name) The creator (Alex Elmsley) would be extremely annoyed (De'vo is) and it is just unethical. Not only that, now OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! people refer to it as cardistry, not flourishing/XCM. Put your self in De'vo's shoes and you would be extremely annoyed..
KGaborMagic
08-20-2011, 08:12 AM
The problem is that De'Vo isn't the most honest person as well. He try to get credit for every single variation of older moves. He even make fake videos to prove it. And it's the money what motivates him, like in theor11. And if your problem is that XCM has been renamed to Cardistry, I think they have big differences. If you watch nowadays cardistry guys (like Tobias), you can see that they do things what De'Vo could never do. These are not De'Vo's one-handed displays, but two-handed 'smooth' cuts.
And I have to agree with la0o9, for example I don't know what I would do without Jason England's tutorials:D
la0o9
08-20-2011, 08:35 AM
But what about smooth360? Fret city! Keeps me awake many a night
first of all, that's not fretting, that's just obsessed
second, i KNEW someone would try that joke the moment i finished typing
disagree with that. Lets use the Elmsley count. Alex Elmsley created it back in the 1900's. What If I were to change it to the Kelan count? (My first name) The creator (Alex Elmsley) would be extremely annoyed (De'vo is) and it is just unethical.
yes, that would certainly be true, but that's stealing an effect and calling it your own, while what Andrei supposedly( like, i know someone changed it, but who knows who? was it REALLY Andrei? can we really believe in De'vo?) did was changing how you use a word, that have been done time and time again, an example would be the word "gay", in the past, around 30 years ago, it was used to describe being happy, now you see what it means? another would be a Vietnamese word that now translates to "things related to finance", in the past it used to mean "to teach the people and thus saving the country" (there are probably more examples, i'm just not that good at literature), so is changing the meaning of a single word THAT big a problem? it's a language, it's bound to change, and since, like you said, 9000 people have already accepted it, there's no reason to go against those 9000 and keep to the old meaning, after all, "change is good"
Kelan
08-20-2011, 08:40 PM
first of all, that's not fretting, that's just obsessed
second, i KNEW someone would try that joke the moment i finished typing
yes, that would certainly be true, but that's stealing an effect and calling it your own, while what Andrei supposedly( like, i know someone changed it, but who knows who? was it REALLY Andrei? can we really believe in De'vo?) did was changing how you use a word, that have been done time and time again, an example would be the word "gay", in the past, around 30 years ago, it was used to describe being happy, now you see what it means? another would be a Vietnamese word that now translates to "things related to finance", in the past it used to mean "to teach the people and thus saving the country" (there are probably more examples, i'm just not that good at literature), so is changing the meaning of a single word THAT big a problem? it's a language, it's bound to change, and since, like you said, 9000 people have already accepted it, there's no reason to go against those 9000 and keep to the old meaning, after all, "change is good"
"Gay" (Happy) and "Gay" (Homosexual) are two different words. There meanings haven't changed, they're just 2 different words. I'm not saying that a revolution should be started, just that a lot of people are being misinformed due to theory11 and Andre.
Errrr.. correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure 'gay' (happy) and 'gay' (homosexual) are the exact same word, having the same origin. From what I know, the word evolved from 'being free from any trouble and worry', which is what 'gay' was also used for. I believe it was used for prostitutes before it eventually got associated with homosexuals.
Anyhow, back on topic, I still couldn't care less about Theory11 and Andrei giving a different meaning to the word 'cardistry' as, like I have said, 'cardistry' makes a whole lot more sense than 'XCM'. To be honest, I am actually glad that they had the definition of the word change if it was indeed their action rather than someone else's.
Not saying they should mislead people, but I just couldn't care less about it in this particular case. It's like saying "That's so gay" when there is absolutely nothing homosexual (or funny) going on. As for the false advertisements, I'm still totally against those.
Kelan
08-20-2011, 09:30 PM
I don't know Mark, I googled it and it said it was the same =0
Not totally sure though
Albert
08-20-2011, 09:52 PM
This is what I found:
The word gay was associated with flamboyance and style, hence "Don we now our gay apparel" (from the song "Deck the Halls"), "gay nineties" (1890s) and "gay Paris" in the late 1800s.
Oscar Wilde was the epitome of gay. After it became publicly known that Wilde was homosexual in 1895, the word began to have a sexual undertone.
By the 1920s it was being used to describe homosexuals, mostly among homosexuals themselves or those sympathetic to homosexuals.
In the 1960s, the word became more commonly used among the general population and by the 1970s was the term was widely used to refer to homosexual people.
So in other words, it practically went from Gay (Happy) > Gay (Flamboyance + Happy) > Gay (homosexuality + Happy). So Mark seems to be right in the sense that they were one and the same word.
After some research on the word 'cardistry', I figured it wasn't actually Andrei's idea to distribute this term thus the explanation De'vo shares on his board is incorrect. Seems like he is just upset with Andrei cheating at the tournament. Blowing up stories like that only seems to be part of some anger management issues.
The term 'cardistry' (magical card artistry) was first used by Rusduck in the mid-20th century, but it wasn't used any often at all, only by Rusduck in his releases and around the same time it appeared in the Genii magazine. That seems about it. The only people that used it in the 50 following years were magicians who either knew the term from Rusduck or who read it in Genii. They passed it on, but because it was barely used, it never took off.
Richard Z from Decknique seems to be the first one who used the term 'cardistry' with another meaning. This took off like crazy thanks to the internet and the popularity of Decknique at the time. And here comes the fun and obvious part: he (like most others) did not know about the earlier publications with the term. He just reinvented it.
In March 2006, Decknique turned their 'Card Technique' forum into 'Cardistry'. In 2007, Paul Gordon released a book called 'Cardistry' too, over a year after the Decknique forum change. It's worth mentioning that the term with its new meaning was already widely used in 2006, before Theory11 even existed, let alone that Andrei was even part of Theory11 at the time. ;)
So, since that part is out of the way, the only things remaining is Andrei cheating on the XCM tournement (I guess we'll have to take De'vo and the Handlordz their words for that) and Theory11's false advertisements (which we all disagree with). :)
s13zeTheDay
08-23-2011, 05:19 PM
In my opinion changing the meaning of the word to suit the times (if that is in fact what happened) is no crime, especially if the new meaning sticks. Also, I'd say getting information about how Andrei has cheated and/or inconvenienced De'vo from De'vo's own post is not necessarily the most reliable source. It's like if I said that Mark stole all his effects from me then linked you to my own blog post saying the same thing
ItsMagicITellYou
09-02-2011, 08:11 PM
honestly, its just words...i can understand why people are miffed but words get thrown around all over the place, which is why meanings change. I mean just go to a thesaurus, if you look up a word, then look up one of its synonyms, then one of ITS synonyms, and so on, you'll end up with a completely different meaning. and i know a lot of people dont like theory11 or ellusionist, but ive had many bad experiences with ellusionist and none with T11.
Albert
09-02-2011, 09:27 PM
I guess some people are a bit more sensitive on this topic than others. :)
I've never purchased anything from Ellusionist or Theory 11, so I can't really comment on their products, except for that I don't personally find some of their releases too honest (i.e. corrupted description) or just not of money's worth.
--------------------------------------------------
Sept 10th, 2011
A few day's ago I've made a comment on The Wire's product Scribble by Calen Morelli:
Good one, but this seems to be Rick Merrill's (FISM 2006 winner) creation. So are we allowed to submit tricks without background research for originality?
I just checked back today to see that T11 has completely ignored both the comments and rating (which I gave as 3 stars). Seems like they just erase anything that isn't favourable to them. Don't know if they did this before, but this is pretty ridiculous. Since they are only taking in good ratings, who knows how misleading The Wire will be? If this isn't for pure profit intentions, I wonder what isn't?
MattJay124
09-10-2011, 06:41 PM
Oh my gosh! That argument was unbelievable. I also despise Theory11. I bought GPS by Chris Kenner (I regret that now!) because they said it was completely impromptu and I was fustrated when I purchased it and it had a HUGE setup. I hate Theory11. Everything about it. The forums are horrible and full of critics. SwarxeneggerMagic gets a load of unnecessery critism from them. Gosh, I really do hate them.
la0o9
09-10-2011, 10:51 PM
well, to be honest, there's no unnecessary criticism, there's always room for improvement and criticism help you find them instead of finding them yourself, but there is constructive criticism and non-constructive criticism, the latter is just simply bashing the person without saying anything about the performance that will actually help
Kayne
09-11-2011, 07:02 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if T11 started to sell pants, hats, shoes, shoe laces, and some nutritious apples and bananas :D
Travmang
09-11-2011, 07:06 PM
T11 sports cars. Who else is buying one? My sports car is gonna be purple :)
Kayne
09-11-2011, 07:29 PM
Theory 11 furniture.
THEORY 11 HOUSES!
THEORY 11 WAFFLES AND PANCAKES!!!! THE HORROR!
And slightly minimal awesomeness :P
Ugh, stop giving them ideas!
Oh... and please stop spamming. This is a serious topic. :)
Alexander
09-19-2011, 06:35 PM
Who the f*ck cares how to call such a beautiful artform (besides De'Vo)? That's just stupid. "Cardistry" is a nice sounding term, so let it be.
la0o9
09-19-2011, 10:47 PM
@Alex: well... everyone? if something really is worth your time, it needs to have it's own identity, which means, a name.
Albert
09-20-2011, 01:58 AM
Alex, please use a nicer language in this forum. We don't tolerate any sincerely impolite way of speaking since that could offend others. It's okay to express your opinions and there is no answer to this question we are discussing, but we can say it in a nicer way.
babyte
08-08-2012, 02:09 PM
Ha, I wanna share with alll of you my personal 'experience'. I cannot really remember which trock on t11 was, but you gonna get the point. I posted the review of the trcik saying that the trick is useless, no way you can perform it in the streets and etc. I was giving 2 stars and trying to aware every1 to make ssure not to buy the trick if you want to perform it in streets. The trick is based for home magic( cannot really explain :/ ). And after the week the review hasn't been posted on official trick page. Then I went angry and written something like this : Sudas, i mean brilliant trick, again, Sudas. Just masterpiece. Gave 5 stars and after few days the review was posted on official page. In fact sudas means - sh1t. xD the only funny thing i want to say.
Kind regards,
babyte
P.S. ( sorry for my terrible english ;/ )